Ezra Levin is the co-founder and co-executive director of Indivisible, a grassroots organization made up of thousands of group leaders and more than a million members taking regular, iterative, and increasingly complex actions to resist the GOPs agenda, elect local champions, and fight for progressive policies.
The following transcript has been edited for formatting.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief of The Contrarian. I’m delighted to have back our dear friend, Ezra Levin, co-founder of Indivisible, who was getting outraged with me even before we got started. Welcome, Ezra, great to see you. Ezra Levin
Happy New Year, Jen, I always love getting angry with you.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. We have had a cold-blooded murder in Minnesota. We’ve had the President, the Vice President, the Secretary of Homeland Security not only lie to our faces, but defame a mother of three, Renee Nicole Good, who was murdered for doing nothing but trying to remove her vehicle as directed by the ICE agents. What is the reaction in the community? What do you think can be done about this, and what do you think the appropriate response is?
Ezra Levin
Look, the reaction has been horror, and the reaction has been outrage, and I think that’s the appropriate reaction. We’ve been talking with Indivisible groups on the ground, since this occurred, and… look, they’re devastated. Their community is being terrorized by a secret police force led by a would-be fascist ruler, and that’s not editorializing, that’s just what’s happening on the ground, and now a woman with a young child is dead, and the regime is actively shielding the perpetrator from any kind of accountability. It’s horrifying.
The only piece of good news in response that I can say is that while this regime is trying to make everybody feel scared and alone, that’s not what we’re seeing in Minnesota, and that’s not what we’re seeing around the country. We just held this launch call last night. It was Indivisible hosting, but it’s not just Indivisible as us and 50501, and ACLU and, Move On, a lot of organizations and a lot of folks on the ground, coming together to talk about what do we actually do in response. Because what we hear from the Republicans right now, they said it explicitly, one member of Congress said, stop protesting, stop getting out there. No, we’re not going to do that. We are not going to do that!
When a regime like this comes for us. attacks our communities, murders Americans, and asks us to not protest. You know what we do? We protest, because it is our job, as Americans, to express our outrage peacefully, but powerfully in this moment. And not just to be on the right side of history, not just to remember Renee Goode, but it’s our job to express outrage because it is our elected official’s job to act. And they are only going to act if they see that we are outraged and demanding action. I’ve seen a lot of elected officials out there expressing the right emotions, which I appreciate. What we want to get them to do is beyond emotion. We want to get them to act.
The way you get elected officials to do their job is by doing your job, and as an American resident of any community in this country, your job over the next 48 hours is to show up, and the good news is since we launched the ICE Out for Good weekend of action yesterday night, there are hundreds of vigils and protests and events scheduled for this weekend, and more every single hour being registered. People are coming out in force. I think this could be an inflection point against ICE.
Jen Rubin
And where do people go if they want to find one near themselves?
Ezra Levin
You can find it at Indivisible.org, just click the link and get there, or to your favorite partner, whether that’s Move On or 5051 or others. Look, I love Indivisible, I’m biased towards Indivisible, I just want you out there. I want you organized in whichever community you’re organizing with, and if you go to that map, and you say, there’s not one in my neighborhood, what a bummer, put it on the map, get your friends together and say, no, we’re going to stand up against ICE in our community. We’re going to join together and tell this fascist force that we’re not going to just lay down or constitutional rights, we’re standing up for them. Protest is not the only thing we can do. Showing up is not going to magically fix everything, but again, if we, as Americans, don’t do our job to protect our rights, to stand up against this force that is terrorizing us. It’s over. That’s the tool we have at our disposal. And if we do that, the politicians will follow. They won’t lead on their own, but they will follow us.
Jen Rubin
And I want to be clear, it’s not only to put pressure on the bad guys, on the administration, on ICE, it is to put pressure on Democrats federally, in Congress. And in Minnesota, at the state and local level, that this must be investigated. This is not going to be pushed under the rug. The state has its own capacity. The sheriff has her own capacity. This does not get shoved under the rug because Donald Trump doesn’t want us to know the truth. And I think people should be clear about this, that the state can do something, the sheriff can do something, they can investigate in parallel to the feds.
Ezra Levin
You are a thousand percent right, Jen. One of the most frustrating things over the last year is hearing from some Democratic elected officials, and this is the local, state, and federal level, what do you want me to do? We’re in the minority; we have no power! ...Do not accept that. Do not accept that. I’m under no illusion that protest is suddenly going to lead Donald Trump or any one of his Republican goons to listen to their better angels if they even have them. That’s not going to happen. The elected officials that could listen to you are the Democrats who do indeed have power, and I’ll give you a specific example, Jen. The funding for ICE runs out at the end of this month!
Democrats are going to be asked to vote to give ICE more money in weeks. And so, a question is: Are Democrats in the Senate and the House going to vote for Trump’s warmongering? Are they going to vote to give more money to a secret police force? Or are they going to use the leverage they have? And I’ll tell you what they’ll say. Some of them, not all of them. You got great ones. Maxwell Frost, and AOC, and Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie, and Chris Van Hollen, Chris Murphy. There are fighters out there that are on the right side of this, but some of them will say, well, if we try to fight back. The Republicans in the Senate, they’re just going to eliminate the filibuster; they’re just going to steamroll us, they’re just going to pull other shenanigans, so we shouldn’t fight on this. I’m sorry. Make them do it. Make that happen.
Use the leverage that you’ve got... make a big political deal about it and stomp them in the midterms, because you know who doesn’t like ICE terrorizing their community? Democrats don’t like it, Independents don’t like it, and normal, everyday Republicans don’t like it. This should be a massive political issue for Trump if he refuses to scale back, but the way you make it a political issue is force them to defend it if they don’t backtrack.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and the biggest example of this just happened in the House. Remember we were told. We shouldn’t have a shutdown, we shouldn’t make this an issue, we’re in the minority, they have all the votes. Well, thank goodness for Hakeem Jeffries and the House members who stuck it out, made it the top issue and drove Trump’s numbers into the ground, kept it in the public eye, even after those senators caved, and lo and behold, 17 Republicans crossed the aisle yesterday to vote for this. What more proof do we need that this works? You force them to do things they don’t want. That’s what politics is about. What was your reaction yesterday when you saw 17 of these cowards who, a few months ago, were unwilling to extend the ACA, suddenly crawling after the Democrats in order to save their skins? Were you relieved? Were you disgusted? This is how we have to make it so, because this is what it takes to get these people to move.
Ezra Levin
I think it’s about all of the above, Jen, honestly. This was the entire theory of the shutdown fight. We knew that Republicans did not want to face their constituents for catastrophic increases in healthcare costs. We knew that many frontline Republicans themselves in the House wanted to extend the ACA tax credits. We knew that the public wanted Congress to do that, which is why we knew this was strong firm ground to fight on, and that’s why the Senate Democrats were winning the fight right up until Chuck Schumer and the rest of them decided to throw in the towel. So, I think what is frustrating is I don’t want to be right. I want to win. And so, it is cold comfort to me to be validated by the events that come after the Senate Democrats surrender. I want ACA tax credits extended. I want ICE rolled back. I don’t want to just be proven to have had the right strategic argument.
It is deeply frustrating to me when what everybody on the streets on No Kings 2 was saying "fight back, hold your ground," when those millions of people are proven right, but you’ve got a handful of Democratic senators who are just cowards, who are feckless leaders, who are unwilling to rise to the moment. And what this leads me to is, I’m sorry, Jen, we’ve been trying to convince these people for over a year, with three of the five largest protests in American history, that the people demand action, demand leadership, and Day after day, week after week, month after month now, they refuse to embrace anything other than status quo politics.
It leads me back to the primaries. I’m sorry. The time for trying to convince these feckless leaders to actually stand at the moment is over. The time to replace them is here, and I’ll give you an example. We’ve got the first of the Senate caucuses, the competitive Senate caucuses or primaries, happy in mere weeks. It’s in Minnesota, of all places. You’ve got Angie Craig, who wants to be the next Democratic senator for Minnesota. You know what Angie Craig did last year? She voted for Lakin Riley to empower ICE, the first bill that landed on Donald Trump’s desk to empower ICE. Angie Craig voted for it. You know what else she did last year? She was part of a crew of Democrats who voted for a resolution thanking ICE for their service to America. You know what she’s doing this year? She’s accepting money from Chuck Schumer in order to run for Democrat in the Senate. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. This is not the kind of leadership that we need in this moment, unless she has some kind of very visible, come-to-Jesus moment about the current state that we’re in that’s beyond just empty promises to fight back, we need different leaders. We need different leaders, and the time to demand them is in the primaries, and that’s coming up all over the country.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and I want to reiterate what you have said a million times, which is fight like hell in the primaries, and then whoever the Democrat is, of course, get behind them in November. Let me go to, perhaps the next battle that is coming up, or it’s not even the next battle, it’s the continuation of this battle. The Senate now is going to vote, most likely next week on the ACA, or some variation of it. What is possible, and what do you want folks to do in order to force the Republicans and the Democrats in the Senate to follow what the House did?
Ezra Levin
Look, I think that the Democrats should be fighting for this because it is wildly popular and good for the country. That’s it, is good politics? And it is good for people. What is the three-dimensional or seven-dimensional chess thinking that would lead them to not do it? Unfortunately, I’ll get pretty cynical with you, Jen. It’s clear to me, some Democrats would prefer this to be a campaign issue in the midterms than to actually solve the problem and do some good. That is the reality of it. I think that’s inexcusable. They would say, well, this is smart politics. We hang the Republicans out to dry by blaming them for failing to do anything about healthcare prices. And I say, make it an issue right now. Fight right now. Because you are living on a different planet if you think that you can hold this and bottle it right up until the midterms.
You’ve got to fight the fight when the fight is available to you, and it’s available to you now. And I think we should be pushing all of our Senate Democrats to fight that thing. I’m willing to back any. If Chuck Schumer announces tomorrow this is where he’s showing the line, I’m behind him. I’ve been plenty critical of him. I do not believe in just choosing the folks who we need to get out and never coming back to the table. If they announce a plan to actually unify this opposition party and fight meaningfully, I’m there with them, but I am done accepting excuses. If they refuse to fight, we should hold them accountable.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Now, we have seen, again, like, we need any more examples, that putting pressure, making Republicans do what they don’t want to do, is possible. We had by a 52 to 47 vote margin, something you never see, which is Republicans voting for a war powers resolution against a sitting Republican president. In this case, because he launched a unilateral, unconstitutional war for oil against Venezuela, and has announced potential other targets. So beyond this, we’re going to need resolutions, I suppose, for Denmark and every other country on the planet. But Republicans move because they saw the reaction, and because Democrats, like Representative Himes, like Representative Smith, have been pounding away at this issue, even before the double tap. boat strike. They have been pounding away. What do you think we now need to do as this potentially now moves to the House, perhaps it’ll take a discharge position, to get the same result in the House?
Ezra Levin
So, you named it, but I just want to underline, Jen, this is about Venezuela, but it’s about much more than Venezuela. Think about how Trump operates. He’s a bully, and he’s a bully who’s always testing the limits. He’s always trying to figure out, where am I going to get pushback? Oh, I didn’t get pushback there. Let’s double down. Let’s do more. So this is about Venezuela, it’s about Denmark and Greenland, it’s about Cuba, it’s about Mexico, it’s about all of the imperialism that this president would like to engage in, it’s about.
Do not push back now. He takes that as a sign, and I’ll tell you why we know that. There was very little pushback against him bombing and murdering Venezuelans in boats off the coast. The thing we heard was, this is a distraction, and people don’t care about that, and why do we need to focus on that? Let’s talk about healthcare prices, or let’s talk about inflation, that’s what people really care about. And look, I’m not saying that cost of living isn’t an important issue, but you’ve got to engage in the issue of the day, and you’ve got to push back when he is testing his limits. So, what I want to see is people in elected bodies fight. I want them to see this is, this is the fight. This is where they need to actually push back, and it’s not just good politics.
Look, I don’t think the Democrats who are refusing to push back are in favor of regime change in Venezuela. Most of them are not. I don’t think they would like to see a war with Denmark. I don’t think they want to see the destruction of NATO. I think they have a model in their head of politics that is just simply outdated. They think that this guy is dangerous, and the best way to confront him is to focus on what the polls say people care most about, which, if you look at it, it’s always going to be healthcare, it’s always going to be jobs, it’s always going to be the economy. So, whenever a different issue comes up, they view that as a problem to be ignored so they can focus on the real winning issue. And I’m here to say that’s old politics that doesn’t work anymore against this authoritarian. You engage him on the ground in front of us right now. You have to fight back here. I think I understand the well-meaning political analysis that leads them in a different direction, and I think it’s for a different era.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. What we’ve seen is one victory leads to other victories. We won on the Epstein files. They’re screwing around with that, so we’re going to have to come back. We won on healthcare. We’re going to have to fight that same battle in the Senate. We won on the War Powers Act. It is not a coincidence that once you start wheedling away and peeling off Republicans on one issue, they come back on other issues. This is how you build momentum, folks. And so, it’s not a distraction, it’s a step, it’s an opportunity. Every one of these is an opportunity, not a distraction. And I think it’s critical for our folks to kind of see that in the big picture. Let me take a step back and look at the entire landscape.
We have what we all feared was coming, and that is a domestic guard, a tyrannical bunch of street thugs who have been unleashed, who are killing Americans, American citizens. Frankly, it shouldn’t matter that it’s a white woman, it shouldn’t matter that it’s a citizen, everybody who’s harmed is a human being, but let’s just put it right there. I think it’s critical for folks, and maybe we can begin to do this on the events coming up, that everybody understand they’re coming for you. It doesn’t matter what color you are. It doesn’t matter whether you’re illegal, or you’re undocumented, or whether you’re a native-born or a naturalized citizen. They’re coming for you. So, I would hope, and I think we’re beginning to see this, that people say, oh, hell. I could be shot in my car. A relative could be shot in the car. Oh, this is about me. How do we get that message over, and is this an opportunity to just do that one basic thing?
Ezra Levin
Look, I do think it’s an opportunity. It’s a real tragic event, and I’ve been reading a lot about Renee Goode, and… Look, I have a 5-year-old and a 3-year-old, Jen, and the picture that I think will haunt me for quite some time is the picture of the car with the airbag out and blood covering the airbag, and in the glove box, what do you see? You see stuffed animals. You see stuffed animals. This is a mom… This is a suburban mom in Minnesota who was doing nothing illegal at all and was driving through a neighborhood peacefully, trying to support her community that was being threatened by masked, armed vigilantes who were terrorizing that community. It’s really scary stuff; I’m not going to lie. It is scary stuff, and it’s right if you’re looking at this to think, oh my gosh, it’s dangerous out there, I’m just going to stay at home. I understand that impulse.
What I would highly encourage folks to do in this moment is not be alone. to reach out to their community. The good news is, your community is organizing right now. These, Ice Out for Good events, we’ve got literally hundreds in the span of 12 hours are already registered. There are more every single hour coming on the map. Check it out. Reach out to your friends and family members. If there’s not one nearby, put it together.
This is a time to be in community, because while they are trying to portray themselves. as regime, as all power, as inevitable, as unstoppable. Their power is fragile. Their power is fragile. They do not have all the cards. They are a small, extreme minority. There are far more of us. This is not ideological. This isn’t there are far more Democrats, this is far more people on the left. There are far more people who believe in the Constitution, and believe in our First Amendment rights, and believe that our community should not be terrorized by a secret police force, then there are fascists who believe otherwise. The only thing standing between us retaking power and making our community safe is the organizing that we got to do, and that comes down to you watching this. If you are watching this and you are not yet connected to your community, find your indivisible group, or your 50-51 group, or your local group of friends. There are going to be folks who feel the same way as you. Find them. Organize and push back, because that’s how we’re going to win.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. I couldn’t say it any better than that, Ezra. It is refreshing to hear that, those of us who have been thinking along the same lines are not alone, that we’re not on Planet Z, that we’re right here, rooted in reality. So, thank you. We’re going to look forward; we’re going to be participating in those events, over the next day or so, and we cannot thank you enough for everything that Indivisible is doing. It is the heart and soul of democracy. This is what it means to be a citizen in a democracy, and you folks are making it so. So, thank you so much. Best of luck. Stay safe out there, and stay angry, folks. Anger is good, righteous anger is good. So, we’ll look forward to speaking with you soon. Thanks so much, Ezra.
Ezra Levin
Thank you, Jen.
The Contrarian